Try 1x for free
1x is a curated photo gallery where every image have been handpicked for their high quality. With a membership, you can take part in the curation process and also try uploading your own best photos and see if they are good enough to make it all the way.
Right now you get one month for free when signing up for a PRO account. You can cancel anytime without being charged.
Try for free   No thanks
We use cookies
This website uses cookies and other tracking technologies to improve your browsing experience for the following purposes: to enable basic functionality of the website, to provide a better experience on the website, to measure your interest in our products and services and to personalize marketing interactions.
I agree   I deny
Forum
Photography
Can the author of the photo be the one who did not shoot it ?
#OFF TOPIC
Vladimir Asriyan
6 years ago
Hello to all !
 
I want to offer you a topic about photo authorship.
 
On this topic I have prepared for you one article, about judgment of authorship between a photographer and a monkey. :-)
 
A link to articles and interviews of the famous Russian photographer and teacher Alexander Lapin, quotes from them.
 
And also a couple of cases from my photo practice.
 
I will also touch upon cases of joint work of masters of painting.
 
If all this is interesting to you, then let me know via a replica that you are ready to participate in the discussion.
 
If there is any quorum, then we will start.
 
Sincerely, Vladimir.
Udo Dittmann PRO
6 years ago
Hello Vladimir,
 
do you mean this story:
 
"The bitter dispute over a photo in which a monkey grins friendly into the camera has come to an end. A US court of appeal in San Francisco ruled that the Makake Naruto has no right to sue for copyright protection."
?
 
greetings
Udo
Vladimir Asriyan
6 years ago
Yes Udo!
 
Here is the story in russian language .
 
https://birdinflight.com/ru/vdohnovenie/critika/20180427-ne-imeete-prava.html
 
But I think that the Google translator will easily translate it into any language.
 
But we are mainly will talking about the authorship of people.
 
By the way, here is a picture just published for authorship of two photographers - brothers.
https://1x.com/member/perezalonsophotography
 
I do not think they both together pressed the camera shutter button.
 
If someone else joins us, I will post a long post.
 
I think it will be interesting.
 
Greetings. Vladimir.
Phyllis Clarke CREW 
6 years ago — Moderator
Hi Vladimir,
A very interesting case which I had not heard about.
 
Here is the entire story in English in case anyone prefers this.(see below)
 
It seems that the photographer has gone broke. So much work he did actually do and received little benefit.
 
One thing seemed clear to me and that is that animals cannot hold copyrights here in the US. Maybe we could teach them to fill out the forms to obtain a copyright we could change this. :)
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute#Background
 
Best wishes,
Phyllis
Vladimir Asriyan
6 years ago
Thank you Phyllis!
 
Your link more fully and in detail describes this 10 year old epic.
 
I think the photographer himself has driven himself into a corner advertising the monkeys making selfies.
 
But the latest information about the future production of the film should inspire some optimism to the photographic line to compensate for the losses incurred.
 
In analog photography, it seemed to me easier.
 
The author is the one who has a negative in his hands.
Although I have an example that even then it was not always so simple.
 
In digital photography, with the advent of photoshop and other creative methods, the matter is even more complicated.
 
I invite you to take part in the conversation and answer the questions that I will raise in the next post.
 
All the best. Vladimir.
Vladimir Asriyan
6 years ago
Hi to all of you !
 
We continue our conversation.
 
Consider examples from Russian painting.
 
Painting by the great Russian artist Perov.
 
“Bird Catcher” 1870.
 
http://www.art-portrets.ru/artists/kartina-pticelov.html
 
And the painting "Hunters on Rest"
 
https://opisanie-kartin.com/opisanie-kartiny-vasiliya-perova-oxotniki-na-privale/
 
What is interesting about these paintings?
 
Of course the paintings themselves.
 
But It turns out that the realistic landscapes of narrative paintings do not belong to Perov, but to Alexey Savrasov.
 
Moreover, Savrasov’s workload is no less than that of Perov !!
 
Here is such a creative tandem of two talented artists.
 
This is not the only case of co-creation.
 
It is known that Perov, in turn, helped Savrasov to write the burlak figures in the painting “Barge Haulers on the Volga”.
 
https://yandex.ru/images/search?pos=20&img_url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FusTDpJB6QmE%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&text=burns%20on%20the%20Volga%20Savras%20&rpt=simage
 
Also known is the story of the painting by Repin.
 
The artist depicted some kind of general, but the epaulettes of the general, which "did not shine" as it should, became a stumbling block on the way to completion.
And then Kuindzhi came to visit Repin, looked and said: "Let me fix it!" And the epaulettes gleamed as it should.
 
In Ivan Aivazovsky’s painting “Pushkin’s Farewell to the Sea” we see the figure
 
of the poet against the backdrop of the sea landscape. Aivazovsky - brilliant
 
marine painter, known for his many works. However, two masters took part in
 
writing this picture: Aivazovsky and Repin.
 
The figure of Pushkin - the handiwork of Repin.
 
Later, Ilya Repin will give an assessment of the joint work like this:
“The awesome Sea wrote Aivazovsky (...) And I honored to create a figure there.”
 
http://nearyou.ru/aivazovsk/87pushkin.html
 
And one more creative tandem is Shishkin's painting Morning in a Pine Forest.
 
Konstantin Savitsky suggested the idea of ​​a painting to Shishkin, and also
 
wrote these bears. Despite the fact that the idea of picture was Savitsky and
 
he wrote bears , Tretyakov, after he acquired this painting, removed the name
 
of Savitsky, leaving only Shishkin's signature. !?
 
https://muzei-mira.com/kartini_russkih_hudojnikov/1292-utro-v-sosnovom-lesu-shishkin-1889.html
 
In 1879, Levitan decided to present a new painting “Autumn Day. Sokolniki "at
 
the student exhibition. A friend of levitan, Nikolai Chekhov (the writer's
 
brother), upon seeing the picture, remarked that the picture would only benefit
 
if we added a female figure. After which he wrote it himself.
 
A wonderful description of this picture can be found by clicking on the link:
 
https://muzei-mira.com/kartini_russkih_hudojnikov/2174-kartina-osenniy-den-sokolniki-levitan-opisanie.html
 
So we see that in the tandem of the two artists authorship gets one of them.
 
 Personally, this seems to me not quite fair.
 
And for you ?
 
Next time let's talk about authorship in modern photography.
Vladimir Asriyan
6 years ago
So, after such an interesting and long-lasting debate :) let's continue our conversation.
 
In the era of 35 mm film photography authorship could be diagnosted relatively easy: whoever had the negative from which the photo print was made he was the author. Although there were controversial moments. I tell about it below.
Questions about authorship have arisen for a long time with the well-known Russian theorist of photo Alexander Lapin.
Alexander Lapin (1945–2012) — photographer, researcher, teacher.
Almost in every big Moscow newspaper or magazine his former students work now.
 
I was one of the first students of Alexander Lapin. After reviewing my creative work using photo editing he took me immediately to the 2nd course. My education was not for long: somehow I quit. He wrote to me, persuaded to return. I remember the phrase: "I feel interesting with you.". It was the most valuable appraisal in my life... Now I regret. But this is a separate story…
“The Beauty You Should Look For Under Your Feet!” — an interview with Alexander Lapin:
 
(Interviewer)
– In article “Photography And Poetry” you once wrote that “there are more good pictures than good photographers”. And you put forward the idea to make an exhibition of such photos that were rescued, perhaps, did not appreciated by authors themselves. The exhibition took place? Or the project was not realized?
(Alexander Lapin)
— There was no project. I recently hosted an “Epson My Favorite Photo” contest, hoping to find something. Well, I found some decent shots. And in fact — this is a huge work, which must devote all of themselves.
 
Photography is random, unlike any other kind of art as poetry or painting there are no accidents. And the photo is based on chance: a person involuntarily pressed the button of a camera hanging somewhere aside — and the shot turns out a masterpiece. But if this masterpiece is much smarter than a man at that time, if the photographer has not yet grown to it, then naturally he will throw out the picture. And I would find him. Here is a project.
 
A chance, often accompany with the creation of a photographic work. Moreover, this happens with everyone: with a newbie photographer, and with a great master. To be true, the master is “lucky” much more often, because he works immeasurably more, he understands what he is doing and is able to evaluate the result.
 
The second phenomenon is a consequence of the first. Only in photography, any amateur photographer, if he is very lucky, can take a picture, which is as valuable in artistic terms as the work of a photographer-artist. But, alas, most likely the masterpiece will disappear: our hypothetical amateur photographer simply cannot understand what happened to him. However, if there is someone with a taste of understanding, in other words, an expert who will be able to appreciate such a “gift of fate”, a unique picture will be saved for people. In this case, by the way, an interesting question arises: who is the author of the masterpiece — the expert or the one who pressed the button and then could not appreciate the picture. End of Lapin's quote.
 
And now I want to add from myself. Yes! The man involuntarily pressed the button of the camera, which hung from him somewhere at the side, but the masterpiece did not work. There was a technical marriage.
 
But the man is no longer the same. Maybe he even read Lapin. :) And he does not throw out this random frame, but sends his so-called “masterpiece” to approval and… gets it. :-) After that, he tries to make the next works look like the mentioned. And then others begin to repeat after him seeing that such a style is highly appreciated!
In the last century (it sounds very funny but for me it was like yesterday) I probably was the first in my native Baku who began to practice photo editing. At that time there was no “Photoshop” yet, but H.C. Woodhead had already appeared with his famous “Creative Photographic Printing Methods.” I studied this book from cover to cover, and then successfully used its methods.
 
By his drawings I made a special framework for combining images. With the help of these frames you created layers like in “Photoshop” nowadays. There were also other methods.
 
So, one day, my friend asked me for help.
He had a BW negative 24x36, low-contrast, but with an excellent plot.
It was the head of the caryatid of the old house that was tied with electric wires with cups and seemed to call for help. The image was really great. And my friend was going to participate with it in the competition in Germany.
 
The theme of the contest was devoted to the protection of ancient monuments.
But there was a problem. They required to send a large imprint. At least 30x40 cm. As you understand, at those time, it was difficult to print from a small, Soviet, low-contrast negative (not “Kodak” or “Ilford”) large imprint on Soviet or Czech paper, and even with the preservation of sharpness. If now the pixels come out, thereat the grains did :)
 
Without thinking twice, I suggested that he use the “method of filtering parts by development”. This method was taught to me by a famous photo artist Vladimir Filonov.
 
Since my friend did not know what it was, I had to deal with the process myself. I had a photo photographic sheet with a contrast coefficient of 8-10. It is usually used in offset printing in printing houses. For comparison, in a conventional 35 mm roll film, this coefficient is 0.8.
 
I printed a 9x12 cm positive. I applied the “hungry development”, i.e. a few minutes later interrupted the development and rolled the film on the glass. I finished it on the glass, and then I fixed it. As a result, a very fine contrasting useful grain appeared, local contrast appeared and the overall sharpness increased as well. (I write about it in such detail because I know that there are many members who find it interesting, and they, like me, are pleased to recall this magic happening in the dark room, which we called the photo lab.)
 
After several such tests, I received the desired positive, and then the negative with the help of contact printing.
This negative 9x12 cm I handed to my friend. He gave it to print and received an imprint of 60x90 cm!
 
So, he sent the photo of excellent quality to Germany. According to the results of the competition, the work received a silver medal.
 
The question arises. The work was printed from the negative 9x12, which I created. I am the author of a new negative. Who is the author of this work? And although I am not the author of the picture, I did not press the button, but should there be one or two signatures under the photo? :-) Maybe I should have been listed as a co-author?
Please note that I do not claim anything. I only raise questions that, it seems to me, arise not only from me.
Consider another example. On 1X website I often see published or unpublished photos (it doesn’t matter) that I think are very interesting or potentially interesting but with a number of flaws.
 
Some of these photos I want to fix, as we say "bring to mind." Then I take a screenshot and start photo editing. Sometimes I sent the result to the author, but this is an ungrateful business,
show the author his edited work :) So I stopped doing it.
 
Once I saw one such work in bright colors, with large perspective distortions, with a crooked pillar, with electric wires in the foreground, interfering with viewing. I corrected perspective distortions, removed this pillar, removed wires in the sky, darkened the bright sky, increased sharpness, I took an evening one from the day's picture, with elements of drama.
I have been busy with this work for a long time, but I liked the result.
 
When I sent this work to the author of the original image, he liked the result, too. But he did not recognize his picture !! :-) He thought that I, too, was in this very distant place for me, took this story from a different point of view and at another time of the day.
 
I had to apologize for this friendly mystification and confess that it was his photo that I edited. Thank God that he was not offended, but said that all this is very funny and asked where I took his original file. :-)
Well, again the question arises. If the author does not recognize his picture and thinks that this is my picture, so who is the author? And if I can publish it in the case? Of course, I will not do it, but still? :-)
 
By the way, in movies this problem was partially solved. But this is also a separate topic.
 
Well, that's all. Let's talk :-)
 
PS. Some details on Alexander Lapin. From 1979 to 1983 he taught at the correspondence public university of art.
He organized the “Studio of Artistic Photography’’ in the House of Culture of Moscow State University (1985–1987).
At the Moscow State University held the “First Moscow Youth Exhibition” (1986),
 
then he organized an exhibition of the master of street shooting, Igor Mukhin (1987), for holding the exhibition was fired!!!
 
From 1992 to 1997 — member of the Commission on State Prizes in the field of fine arts under the President of the Russian Federation, expert in photo art.
In 2003, Alexander Lapin published the first edition of the book “Photography as…” which quickly became a bestseller.
The book discusses the theory of black and white documentary photography, the laws of photo composition, the psychology of perception of photography. There is an analysis of the principle of evaluation and analysis of photographic images.
 
In 2006, the second book was released: “Plane and Space, or Life Square”.
In 2009, Epson and Leica presented the exhibition “Lapin School”, which exhibited more than 300 photographs of Alexander Lapin himself, as well as his students.
 
(See the site of Igor Mukhin: http://igormukhin.com. He’s an outstanding street photographer.)
 
From 1992 to 1997, Lapin was a member of the commission on state prizes in the field of fine arts under the President of the Russian Federation, an expert on photo art.
 
As a photographer, he participated in many exhibitions (Russia, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, France, Switzerland, America, England), held 5 solo exhibitions in various countries. Works are in collections in Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow, Corcoran Gallery of Art in Washington, Fine Art Museum in Boston, in private collections and galleries.
 
PPS. “Photo Poetry” — article by Alexander Lapin: http://www.interfotki.ru/catalog/articles/355/17,
http://www.stosvet.net/1/Lapin. Read it, it's interesting!